[Good_Guy]

Couple things about Exchange ActiveSync (EAS):

1) As stated, it isn't push, but more along the lines of a triggered pull. The device does all the legwork, which definitely is showing battery concerns.

2) Security and device management is lacking, to say the least.

3) The funniest thing (in a sad, not ha-ha way) is that the mobility group for Microsoft was moved to the home entertainment group. In other words, the same group that is responsible for the Xbox is now responsible for push email. Let's see, XBox that generates $$$ versus email that is 'free'. Where is the focus going to be?

[brace! brace!]

I tested a WM5 with Push a while ago. It wasn't very good. It's OK but not as good as the BB for email or generally the syncing. What I found was:

1. Delays in getting emails - it does take much longer which can be a real pain if you are in a meeting and wanting an answer quickly (also that depends on the person at the other end but in this case that wasn't the problem).

2. Like mentioned before, battery life is a real problem on these devices. It's not just the fake push (ie the polling from the phone) but generally speaking these WM5 devices suck power sooooo much faster. My BB 8700 gives me two days of life with Bluetooth enabled for my headset with emails coming in at a regular basis. The WM5 device could not last a full day (was DEAD before 3PM). I travel a lot and I don't have car chargers and desktop chargers available when I'm visiting factories etc so battery life is important.

3. For people who pay for the service themselves (ie not a company paid service), the charges will be higher as the devices certainly send more data wirelessly. It does have something to do with the email sync so it does seem to constanly be sending and receiving. All those wireless data packets add up quickly!!

4. Mobile roaming into Asia did not work while my BB worked like the trooper it is.

5. Security is much better on the BB.

In the short term, the BB is better. Longer term the Windows Mobile thingy will catch up IF RIM does not continue to innovate. Right now they are ahead and with there current developments they are staying ahead.

The one thing against (and at the same time FOR) the BB is the lack of the Windows applications. On one hand, it limits some user's functionality. On the other hand, it increases security for organisations. For me, an iPod is my music player, I have a digital camera which I carry for taking pictures and my BB manages my emails, my tasks and my calls. I'm a road warrier who constantly travels from Australia to China and I take things everywhere with me in my bag and for me it is no problem.

Windows Mobile devices are catching up but it seems to be that RIM is trying to innovate to stay ahead which is a good thing for BB users. Switching to Windows devices is no big deal. Email does sort of work and the handheld applications DO work but for me, I'm still happy with BB.

cheers!

[Inphektion]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

Couple things about Exchange ActiveSync (EAS):

1) As stated, it isn't push, but more along the lines of a triggered pull. The device does all the legwork, which definitely is showing battery concerns.

2) Security and device management is lacking, to say the least.

3) The funniest thing (in a sad, not ha-ha way) is that the mobility group for Microsoft was moved to the home entertainment group. In other words, the same group that is responsible for the Xbox is now responsible for push email. Let's see, XBox that generates $$$ versus email that is 'free'. Where is the focus going to be?

1. It is PUSH. Most people here seem really confused and when they say they are running push they may not be. For ex the Mot Q was not true PUSH until the most recent update finally enabled that feature. It did use an sms type poll under the covers. It doesn't do that anymore.

2. Agreed

[southwestcomm]

1. Were you using the most recent updates - AKU2 and MSFT? I found Win Mob to push just about as quickly as my BB.

2. Can't speak to the battery life issue. There are many factors that contribute to the battery life.

3. Unlimited data is unlimited data. Who cares how many packets are sent when it is unlimited? Without paying for a NOC the Win Mob solution is actually less expensive. $15.00 for data on a device from Sprint vs. the $39.99 I pay for my BB.

4. Can't speak to the data roaming issue.

5. Security. "SIGH" Open can of worms time......The transport layer for the Win Mob 5.0 solution is no less secure than a BB. Ok...who throws the first punch....From a server level I agree - BB, and even Good, offer more IT controls - for now. MSFT does include a "kill" feature and ability to force a password on the device. I am certain future releases will improve the options.

Don't get me wrong - I love my BB and can't wait till the 8703 on Sprint. But I have tested the Win Mob solution and find it to be compelling solution as well.

Originally Posted by brace! brace!

I tested a WM5 with Push a while ago. It wasn't very good. It's OK but not as good as the BB for email or generally the syncing. What I found was:

1. Delays in getting emails - it does take much longer which can be a real pain if you are in a meeting and wanting an answer quickly (also that depends on the person at the other end but in this case that wasn't the problem).

2. Like mentioned before, battery life is a real problem on these devices. It's not just the fake push (ie the polling from the phone) but generally speaking these WM5 devices suck power sooooo much faster. My BB 8700 gives me two days of life with Bluetooth enabled for my headset with emails coming in at a regular basis. The WM5 device could not last a full day (was DEAD before 3PM). I travel a lot and I don't have car chargers and desktop chargers available when I'm visiting factories etc so battery life is important.

3. For people who pay for the service themselves (ie not a company paid service), the charges will be higher as the devices certainly send more data wirelessly. It does have something to do with the email sync so it does seem to constanly be sending and receiving. All those wireless data packets add up quickly!!

4. Mobile roaming into Asia did not work while my BB worked like the trooper it is.

5. Security is much better on the BB.

In the short term, the BB is better. Longer term the Windows Mobile thingy will catch up IF RIM does not continue to innovate. Right now they are ahead and with there current developments they are staying ahead.

The one thing against (and at the same time FOR) the BB is the lack of the Windows applications. On one hand, it limits some user's functionality. On the other hand, it increases security for organisations. For me, an iPod is my music player, I have a digital camera which I carry for taking pictures and my BB manages my emails, my tasks and my calls. I'm a road warrier who constantly travels from Australia to China and I take things everywhere with me in my bag and for me it is no problem.

Windows Mobile devices are catching up but it seems to be that RIM is trying to innovate to stay ahead which is a good thing for BB users. Switching to Windows devices is no big deal. Email does sort of work and the handheld applications DO work but for me, I'm still happy with BB.

cheers!

[southwestcomm]

What apps do they run that aren't on a BB? We are a custom BB development shop - I can make any app for a BB.

Originally Posted by berry-bum

80% of the people I work with use Treo's, because they don't really have a choice. They need certain apps that are not yet compatible with the Blackberry platform. But when it comes to email, they are all jealouse of me.

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by Inphektion

1. It is PUSH. Most people here seem really confused and when they say they are running push they may not be. For ex the Mot Q was not true PUSH until the most recent update finally enabled that feature. It did use an sms type poll under the covers. It doesn't do that anymore.

It is NOT push. No, it is not AUTD, as the old Exchange email was, however, the Exchange server does not push data. The device initiates an http request to Exchange and asks Exchange to report any changes, not vice-versa. This is not push in the sense that BB and Good where the server drives everything. Realistically, from an end-user perspective, it doesn't matter HOW the traffic gets there, outside of the fact that with the device driving everything, the battery issue raises it's head.

[noeffectx]

WM5 is an awesome device if you dont need "push" email.

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

1. Were you using the most recent updates - AKU2 and MSFT? I found Win Mob to push just about as quickly as my BB.

2. Can't speak to the battery life issue. There are many factors that contribute to the battery life.

3. Unlimited data is unlimited data. Who cares how many packets are sent when it is unlimited? Without paying for a NOC the Win Mob solution is actually less expensive. $15.00 for data on a device from Sprint vs. the $39.99 I pay for my BB.

4. Can't speak to the data roaming issue.

5. Security. "SIGH" Open can of worms time......The transport layer for the Win Mob 5.0 solution is no less secure than a BB. Ok...who throws the first punch....From a server level I agree - BB, and even Good, offer more IT controls - for now. MSFT does include a "kill" feature and ability to force a password on the device. I am certain future releases will improve the options.

Don't get me wrong - I love my BB and can't wait till the 8703 on Sprint. But I have tested the Win Mob solution and find it to be compelling solution as well.

2. Agreed, however, with the device doing the work, battery life is dropping.

3. Actually, Cingular has announced that any WM5 device supporting EAS will have a WM Data plan that is $44.99. My guess is that the other carriers will follow suit since EAS is a major bandwidth hog.

4. Same here

5. Incorrect. EAS uses SSL only, whereas BB (and Good for that matter) use 192 bit AES. Even more importantly, however, is that the data on the handheld is not encrypted, while with BB and Good, it is. In addition, the user can decide whether or not to use SSL, not the administrator.

With absolutely zero device management capabilities, outside of remote erase, the MSFT solution is nowhere near ready for the the enterprise space. SMB space, possibly, but get over about 25 users, no way.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

What apps do they run that aren't on a BB? We are a custom BB development shop - I can make any app for a BB.

This interests me, because there are a LOT of Palm apps that have no real equal on the BB.

I don't want to hijack this thread, so look for another thread I'm, about to start and will try to link here after I get it posted.

Here is the thread I started:

http://www.blackberryforums.com/gene...tml#post305781

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by noeffectx

WM5 is an awesome device if you dont need "push" email.

Why not? There are push solutions available for WM5.

[Postalrecon]

Originally Posted by tmushy

Has anyone actually tried Windows Push email? Iv been so tempted to switch to another phone. I lovee my Blackberry but I miss features such as a camera, ability to run windows applications, slingbox, etc.....

So has anyone tried windows push email if so how does it compare to a Blackberry?

yea i did my time with a Q, terrible IMO. I like blackberry more becasue the "soultion" comes with a fair price which includes full on internet, push email, and other things for a fair price, Windows solution you have to pay for each piece of the soultion.

[southwestcomm]

3. Cingular may be changing their pricing but Sprint is not.

5. True SSL is utilized but it is 128 bit RC4 encryption - same security that banks and financial institutions use for their Web based transactions. MS has received FIPS 140-2 certification for the solution. Appears the gov't finds the solution secure. BTW...it is possible to enable 3DES natively with the MS solution as well. Let's be honest - does any company who merely needs wireless Email need 3DES or AES? Show me one occurrance where SSL has been cracked or broken?

I can't comment on the customers we have sold/currently selling but I have a 150 unit account using the MSFT solution and working with a 300 unit account - migrating them from BB. There is also a large deployment occuring with the US Navy as well. There are accounts willing to forego the BES and Good higher level options.

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

2. Agreed, however, with the device doing the work, battery life is dropping.

3. Actually, Cingular has announced that any WM5 device supporting EAS will have a WM Data plan that is $44.99. My guess is that the other carriers will follow suit since EAS is a major bandwidth hog.

4. Same here

5. Incorrect. EAS uses SSL only, whereas BB (and Good for that matter) use 192 bit AES. Even more importantly, however, is that the data on the handheld is not encrypted, while with BB and Good, it is. In addition, the user can decide whether or not to use SSL, not the administrator.

With absolutely zero device management capabilities, outside of remote erase, the MSFT solution is nowhere near ready for the the enterprise space. SMB space, possibly, but get over about 25 users, no way.

[southwestcomm]

Give me a couple days to research the apps and I'll get back to you.

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

This interests me, because there are a LOT of Palm apps that have no real equal on the BB.

I don't want to hijack this thread, so look for another thread I'm, about to start and will try to link here after I get it posted.

Here is the thread I started:

http://www.blackberryforums.com/gene...tml#post305781

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by Postalrecon

yea i did my time with a Q, terrible IMO. I like blackberry more becasue the "soultion" comes with a fair price which includes full on internet, push email, and other things for a fair price, Windows solution you have to pay for each piece of the soultion.

The Q doesn't support MSFT push.

[tmushy]

I am sure they will eventually add push email to the Q. Also how does it not support it wasnt the unit meant to be a blackberry killer? (btw Q is very nice but Id take the blackberry pearl over it)

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by southwestcomm

3. Cingular may be changing their pricing but Sprint is not.

You know this for a fact? Being that as of right now, Sprint only has one phone that supports EAS, there is no need. With the release of the 700W and additional WM5 devices, do not be surprised to see Sprint raise their WM data plansl

5. True SSL is utilized but it is 128 bit RC4 encryption - same security that banks and financial institutions use for their Web based transactions. MS has received FIPS 140-2 certification for the solution. Appears the gov't finds the solution secure. BTW...it is possible to enable 3DES natively with the MS solution as well. Let's be honest - does any company who merely needs wireless Email need 3DES or AES? Show me one occurrance where SSL has been cracked or broken?

The fact that the end-user can turn off SSL is the problem. I am not saying SSL isn't secure. I am saying that end-user intervention in the security, no encryption on the device, no remote erase on the SD card, those are securitu concernts.

Now, as for FIPS 140-2, be careful listening to the MSFT marketspeak. WM5 is FIPS 140-2 Certified. The OS. EAS is FIPS 140-2 compliant. Anything running on WM5, since the OS is certified, can be considered FIPS compliant.

I can't comment on the customers we have sold/currently selling but I have a 150 unit account using the MSFT solution and working with a 300 unit account - migrating them from BB. There is also a large deployment occuring with the US Navy as well. There are accounts willing to forego the BES and Good higher level options.

When they decide to switch back because of the overhead on their Exchange server, no device management and the first time they have to cradle all 150 or 300 devices every three months for a patch, let me know and we can work something out

Seriously, we have spoken with many, many large corporations and without fail, if they were considering EAS, once they saw it and did a deep dive, they said there was no way they would implement the solution. Yes, there will be folks who will, but I stand by my claim that EAS is nowhere near ready for deployments of the size you are talking about. How are they managing the devices? Do they intend to apply the same security and password policy to all 150 or 300 users? So the IT Director has the same policy as the new hire sales rep? Are they going to watch and make sure that users are not downloading documents from email and storing them, unencrypted, on the SD card? Too many questions as it relates to EAS. BB and Good are far superior solutions in all aspects.

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by tmushy

I am sure they will eventually add push email to the Q. Also how does it not support it wasnt the unit meant to be a blackberry killer? (btw Q is very nice but Id take the blackberry pearl over it)

Oh, they will have it. By 4th quarter at the latest is what I am hearing. However, one of the big gripes about the Q (I have one and can attest) is the WM5 Smartphone Edition mail client is lacking, to say the least. It is horrible to be honest.

[udontknowjack]

Just to be fair. The Q will have "push" very soon. The msfp is in testing now. It even got leaked out a few weeks ago to some users so it is coming.

[NJBlackBerry]

It's still a POS

Of the sorry lot, the Nokia E61 has held my interest the longest. Not even going to try BB Connect on it, we are doing a E2K3 "Smart"phone pilot.

I can not imaging what would happen if we gave these devices to our executives.

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by udontknowjack

Just to be fair. The Q will have "push" very soon. The msfp is in testing now. It even got leaked out a few weeks ago to some users so it is coming.

Yup. It leaked and there were people getting less than 18 hours of batter life. Not all, mind you, but the Q has been taking hits on battery life before any update. With EAS, it is even worse. Bear in mind, these are typically power users that get these 'leaked' patches and fixes. It will be interesting to see the how 'normal' users experiences will be.