[tfaz1]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

By that same logic, wouldn't it be a little silly - nay - downright ridiculous to pretend that Apple has all this insight that somehow the combined forces of Nokia, Motorola, Ericsson and NTT have somehow missed over the last 30 years of Phone development?

Actually, by your own words, all current mobile manufacturers seem to be lacking in insight. And for once we agree...

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

I love handheld devices, it is just that I haven't seen anyone get one right since Sony discontinued the Clié and Palm lost all semblance of focus.

...As far as I'm concerned, the BlackBerry is just the best of the worst.

By your own testimonial, Nokia, Motorola, Ericsson and NTT have all failed pretty miserably. Based on this insight, the mobile phone landscape is pretty bleak. Yet, you seem quick to predict that Apple, who has excelled in hardware design, UI, software development and now portable consumer electronics is going to be a huge failure in the mobile phone arena?

You aren't making any sense.

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by backbeat

Maybe I shoulda said n u k y a l e r for some to get it.

regurgitate every negative piece of tripe

forthcoming diatribe

Devoid of integrity.

Sorry, but I'm not going to take your flamebait nor lower myself to the standards of juvenile name-calling and attacks by responding in kind. I'm going to restrict myself to talking about the devices themselves and leave the name-calling to you. After all, you're only destroying your own reputation here. Enjoy...

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

Sorry, but I'm not going to take your flamebait nor lower myself to the standards of juvenile name-calling and attacks by responding in kind. I'm going to restrict myself to talking about the devices themselves and leave the name-calling to you. After all, you're only destroying your own reputation here. Enjoy...

Oh reeeeaaaally?

Originally Posted by DallasFlier

Hurry back, yet another poster has weighed in adding to the numbers who make it obvious you don't know half as much as you think you do. I predict yet another juvenile attempt to make sure you can try to get the last word in - coming soon!

A legend - in your own mind...

Buzz-off, flier.

[dgray8]

take it to PM you two if this gets any worse please....thanks

[DallasFlier]

Originally Posted by backbeat

Oh reeeeaaaally?

Originally Posted by DallasFlier...

Buzz-off, flier.

That "post" doesn't exist - nice try though.

[backbeat]

This one remains true:

Here's how this discussion has gone ... Apple iPhone Announced -> Naysayer's/Pilers-On regurgitate every negative piece of tripe they can lay their hands on -> Naysayers get called on it for not being level-handed in their treatment -> Naysayers cry Foul.

Nothing has changed. <sigh>

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by tfaz1

By your own testimonial, Nokia, Motorola, Ericsson and NTT have all failed pretty miserably. Based on this insight, the mobile phone landscape is pretty bleak. Yet, you seem quick to predict that Apple, who has excelled in hardware design, UI, software development and now portable consumer electronics is going to be a huge failure in the mobile phone arena?

You aren't making any sense.

You really are projecting an amazing amount into what I have said. At no point have I said, or even implied that the iPhone will be a huge failure. Everything I have said, has been very specifically focused on saying why I think that the people who say this is going to revolutionize the industry and be to the phone market what the iPod was to the MP3 player market are wrong.

You don't seem to understand, that someone saying you are wrong, does not mean they automatically believe whatever you imagine as the opposite of your position. Someone not being a Christian (for example) does not automatically make them a Satanist. In case you ever wondered, this would be exactly why people think Apple fanatics are a crazy cult. The argument is nowhere near as simple as either saying that Apple is going to completely revolutionize the phone industry as we know it, or be a complete failure, and it is only the idolatry of a zealot that would try to boil the argument down to such ridiculous extremes.

In fact, if you would read what I said, instead of what you imagine anyone who disagrees with you must have said, I specifically said that I think Apple will have no problem meeting their 10 million unit goal, I just question how many more they will sell after they have satisfied that market. As has been pointed out, this means I am giving Apple a better chance than more than a few financial analysts. I also don't think that selling 10 million units represents much of a 'revolution' in the phone industry. One more time for the Apple evangelicals in the audience, Apple has released a phone, that I think will sell really well to those people who are already subscribers to the Apple lifestyle brand, but I question how much appeal it will have outside of that existing customer base. You will notice that nowhere in there is the word "failure."

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

You will notice that nowhere in there is the word "failure."

You, of course, are only speaking for yourself. A number of your compatriots cannot make such a claim (with a straight face). Nice company you're keeping.

[tomtech]

It was interesting to watch Jobs' MacWorld keynote compared to Gates' CES keynote. For Jobs, the audience was oohing and ahhing, gasping, applauding and shouting. For Gates, the audience seemed to clap politely at the appropriate times, except for once when one of Gates' presenters had to actually prompt the audience to clap...interesting indeed....

[tfaz1]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

You really are projecting an amazing amount into what I have said. At no point have I said, or even implied that the iPhone will be a huge failure.

Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. This is what you said:

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

Why, everything Apple does isn't magically gold, just because Apple did it. Their digital camera was a flop, their game console was a flop, the Newton was a flop, their new AppleTV is a joke, their first attempt at a phone was a flop, they do make mistakes.

Why don't you explain the difference between "flop" and "failure" then?

I'm not reading too much into your words. In fact, I see you pretty clearly for what you are. You say that people buy Apple products only because they're fashionable. You say the Mac OS UI is poor. You say the iPod was a flop (you really like that word) and that Apple is the same as Microsoft; statements so asinine that you lose all credibility.

You, sir, are an Apple hater (which is fine). But don't get all high and mighty, acting like you're approaching this debate from a neutral position. Your previous commends just don't support that.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by tfaz1

Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. This is what you said:


Why don't you explain the difference between "flop" and "failure" then?

Sure, easy enough, flop is spelled ROKR!!! That would be why it was in the PAST tense, not the future tense!!!!!!

[tfaz1]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

Sure, easy enough, flop is spelled ROKR!!! That would be why it was in the PAST tense, not the future tense!!!!!!

The ROKR is not an Apple product. So get that out of your head. And if you are going to try to dispute your anti-Apple tendencies, good luck. You've already identified yourself as an Apple hater.

Also, calm down. Why all the exclamation points? This is a gadget website, dude. Go outside or something. Something tells me you need more human contact.

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

Sure, easy enough, flop is spelled ROKR!!! That would be why it was in the PAST tense, not the future tense!!!!!!

Your banter is typical HoFo ameteur-comedy-hour. You lie about your own position. What else would you lie about?

So much for Blackberry forums upholding a higher standard.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by tfaz1

I'm not reading too much into your words. In fact, I see you pretty clearly for what you are. You say that people buy Apple products only because they're fashionable.

No, I say that Apple is a lifestyle brand, just like Ikea, BMW, Harley Davidson, or MTV. GO look up a lifestyle brand, and I think you will find Apple fits the definition pretty well. That isn't to say they don't make some good products, it is just to say that that the branding is more important to the users than the actual product.

Originally Posted by tfaz1

You say the Mac OS UI is poor.

I don't remember saying that. The argument could be made, and I certainly would have some leanings in that direction, but until now I don't remember addressing that topic.

Originally Posted by tfaz1

You say the iPod was a flop (you really like that word)

Reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit on the SAT, was it? I said that the first generation of the iPod was a flop, and that it took about two years for Apple to turn the iPod into a mass market success. That is really nothing at all like saying the iPod was a flop from start to finish.

Originally Posted by tfaz1

and that Apple is the same as Microsoft;

Actually, that was someone entirely different, but hey, as long as you are dividing the world up into the faithful and the heathens, why bother differentiating one heathen from another, they are all just stupid unwashed heathens. What I said was that Apple was just as flawed a company as Microsoft. Once again, a basic primer in logic. Two items sharing flaws, does not make them the same. You really need to work on that reading comprehension thing.

Originally Posted by tfaz1

You, sir, are an Apple hater (which is fine). But don't get all high and mighty, acting like you're approaching this debate from a neutral position. Your previous commends just don't support that position.

You see, those of us who don't have a religious worship of any companies, don't divide the world up into "us" and "them." I am not an "Apple hater" I am a potential customer Apple has failed to impress with their product offering. I know that to someone who obviously takes any criticism of Apple so personally as you do, that is impossible, and the only way someone could fail to be impressed with Apple products, is by having some deep seated hatred that keeps them form seeing the glory of all things Apple, but that is because you are a fanatic!

This is exactly what I am talking about. I have no doubt that Apple could sell breakfast cereal to you and your brethren, and you would extol the virtues of what an innovative and revolutionary breakfast cereal it is. All the while, saying that anyone who ate any other breakfast cereal obviously either wasn't qualified to comment on the value of breakfast cereal, or had some personal issues that made them refuse to eat Apple breakfast cereal, because they hated Apple. That isn't the way it works in the world of sane people. We don't owe companies our loyalty, or even the benefit of the doubt. they have to win us over with their products. If they fail to do that, it is their failure, not some problem with the person they failed to convince.

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by tfaz1

Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. This is what you said:


Why don't you explain the difference between "flop" and "failure" then?

I'm not reading too much into your words. In fact, I see you pretty clearly for what you are. You say that people buy Apple products only because they're fashionable. You say the Mac OS UI is poor. You say the iPod was a flop (you really like that word) and that Apple is the same as Microsoft; statements so asinine that you lose all credibility.

You, sir, are an Apple hater (which is fine). But don't get all high and mighty, acting like you're approaching this debate from a neutral position. Your previous commends just don't support that position.

Must be something in that Tex/Mex air and water supply that makes them turn like that.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by tfaz1

The ROKR is not an Apple product.

Really, then why does his holiness Steve Jobs himself talk in interviews about how much they learned from their first attempt at a phone partnered with Motorola on the ROKR? I guess Steve Jobs is an Apple hater too!

Originally Posted by tfaz1

So get that out of your head. And if you are going to try to dispute your anti-Apple tendencies, good luck. You've already identified yourself as an Apple hater.

Oh god, I quail in fear! Is the inquisition going to come to my house and paint a red Apple on my door so they know who to drag away when the Apple rapture comes?

[backbeat]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

At no point have I said, or even implied that the iPhone will be a huge failure.

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

Why, everything Apple does isn't magically gold, just because Apple did it. Their digital camera was a flop, their game console was a flop, the Newton was a flop, their new AppleTV is a joke, their first attempt at a phone was a flop.

Originally Posted by tfaz1

Why don't you explain the difference between "flop" and "failure" then?

Apparently, lmlloyd is too busy locating his spine to provide a direct response regarding his flip-flopping .

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by backbeat

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

Apparently, lmlloyd is too busy locating his spine to provide a direct response regarding his flip-flopping .

You aren't very skilled at reading comprehension either, are you?

Ok, let me diagram this out for you.

The assertion is that Apple was successful with the iPod, therefore Apple will be successful with the iPhone.

The counter argument being that Apple having one successful line of products (iPod) does not automatically guarantee all Apple products are successful, as evidenced by the Quicktake, Pippen, Newton, AppleTV, and ROKR.

Thus, the logic of your assertion is shown to be invalid.

Now, you, all by your lonesome go out into crazyland, and decide that if I disagree with you, then that must mean I am taking the furthest possible position from yours, and that I can't possibly think anything but that the iPhone will be a complete and utter failure. Unfortunately, just showing how poorly constructed an argument is, does nothing but disprove that argument. It makes no proof, nor even implication of an opposing position. I never said that the iPhone was going to be a failure, I just said that your reasoning for why it would be a soaring success was faulty. They aren't the same thing.

At this point you aren't even arguing with me. You are arguing with some bogeyman you have created in your own mind who says whatever you think of as the opposite of what you believe. Now, in your mind, you have defeated that imaginary bogeyman, by showing that what I say, contradicts what your imaginary bogeyman has been saying, and since you are incapable of telling us apart, that must mean we are both lying.

God I hate talking about anything made by Apple for exactly this reason. All the weirdos who think debate is what you put on the end of defishing line come out to play!

[tfaz1]

Look, I really like Apple products. Obviously. That doesn't mean I drink the Cool Aid and think that Steve is the Second Coming. Nor have I said I think this iPhone is going to be huge is an already saturated mobile market.

But what's obvious if you read through lmlloyd's posts is his anti-Apple bias. This is fine. I meet people like him all the time. Usually, they're comments are nothing more than displaced envy and feelings of inadequacy. But for him to pretend that his criticisms are coming from a neutral place is laughable.

Need I say it again? He said the original iPod was a "FLOP." No one with a brain would actually try to defend that statement.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by tfaz1

Nor have I said I think this iPhone is going to be huge is an already saturated mobile market.

No, you actually haven't said much of anything except that I have emotional issues because I don't think 54,000 units a quarter is a roaring success in the consumer electronics market.

At one point you pretended you had a lot of cogent arguments, but didn't really feel you needed to share them with us, because they were trumped by your ad hominem attacks on my motivation.

The funny thing is, even if Steve Jobs raped my 8-month-old puppy with a gang of Apple engineers when i was 12, that doesn't actually make my arguments any less valid. The argument is valid, or it isn't, no matter who poses it, or what their motivation. So far, all you have done is impugn my motivation, my character, my knowledge, my intellect, and misunderstand/misrepresent/misinterpret what I am saying.