[udontknowjack]

Don't get me wrong. I agree with NJ on the Q. I think it is junk. I just know it is going to be "push" fairly soon. We have quite a few devices running WM5 and they are quickly becoming my biggest support headache in the wireless arena. They are almost taking as much of my time as Treos and that is saying a lot especially since we have about twice as many Treos and Treos suck.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

Seriously, we have spoken with many, many large corporations and without fail, if they were considering EAS, once they saw it and did a deep dive, they said there was no way they would implement the solution. Yes, there will be folks who will, but I stand by my claim that EAS is nowhere near ready for deployments of the size you are talking about. How are they managing the devices? Do they intend to apply the same security and password policy to all 150 or 300 users? So the IT Director has the same policy as the new hire sales rep? Are they going to watch and make sure that users are not downloading documents from email and storing them, unencrypted, on the SD card? Too many questions as it relates to EAS. BB and Good are far superior solutions in all aspects.

You are only looking at one side of the equation though. Of course the BB is far superior to Windows Mobile when it comes to device management. However, when the CEO suddenly gets the bright idea that he wants his entire salesforce to have the entire product catalog live on their handheld, the tables start to turn. Sure, with the BB you could make a bunch of internal web or WAP pages that have the information that the salesforce accesses from their BB, but that is hardly the most responsive solution, and means they have to deal with the impossibly slow BB Browser. With a Windows Mobile device, you could whip up a Flash app in an afternoon that pulls an XML or SQL straight from the product database and keeps it resident on the machine for fast access, and then updates itself in the background whenever it has a net connection.

The BB is a great messaging solution, and is very IT friendly, but from a developer's perspective, it is a very limited handheld platform, lacking a lot of the development tools available for other handhelds. It is especially lacking in RAD tools. Anything you need to deploy quickly and cheaply on a BB, pretty much requires that web or WAP are your only options, and those are less than optimal development platforms.

I have seen plenty of companies that have decided to go with Windows Mobile or Palm, specifically because they were more concerned with ease of custom development, rather than ease of device management.

[Good_Guy]

Fair enough and to keep this from becoming a Good vs BB battle (been there done that), I won't go into detail regarding GMI, but we have a product that will push updated content, like you are referring to, to the phone. Using your example, how would that Flash app get deployed to the phone? Cradling?

[bbmember]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

You are only looking at one side of the equation though. Of course the BB is far superior to Windows Mobile when it comes to device management. However, when the CEO suddenly gets the bright idea that he wants his entire salesforce to have the entire product catalog live on their handheld, the tables start to turn. Sure, with the BB you could make a bunch of internal web or WAP pages that have the information that the salesforce accesses from their BB, but that is hardly the most responsive solution, and means they have to deal with the impossibly slow BB Browser. With a Windows Mobile device, you could whip up a Flash app in an afternoon that pulls an XML or SQL straight from the product database and keeps it resident on the machine for fast access, and then updates itself in the background whenever it has a net connection....

I don't agree with you at all. First of all BB Browser is fast. Yes it doesn't support flash but its definitely not slow with javascript/html. Moreover, with MDS 4.1 access to back office applications through web services is greatly simplified. So I think BB is not just a good messageing tool (for email / IM), it can also be used for accessing web services, back end databases, CRMs etc.

[strobate]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

However, when the CEO suddenly gets the bright idea that he wants his entire salesforce to have the entire product catalog live on their handheld, the tables start to turn. ... With a Windows Mobile device, you could whip up a Flash app in an afternoon that pulls an XML or SQL straight from the product database and keeps it resident on the machine for fast access, and then updates itself in the background whenever it has a net connection.

Hmm. This is an interesting point, and my understanding was that this could be done on a BlackBerry, tho not easily (I'm not a developer so don't listen to me on this point).

That being said, in the enterprise environment I'm in this would _never_ fly without intense security controls in place. I'm not sure WinMo can deliver on those.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by bbmember

I don't agree with you at all. First of all BB Browser is fast. Yes it doesn't support flash but its definitely not slow with javascript/html. Moreover, with MDS 4.1 access to back office applications through web services is greatly simplified. So I think BB is not just a good messageing tool (for email / IM), it can also be used for accessing web services, back end databases, CRMs etc.

Well, I don't think the BB browser is really very fast at all as browsers go. However, I wasn't talking about the browser itself, as much as the inherent nature of cellular data connections. Sometimes they are fast, sometimes they are slow, sometimes they aren't there at all. Any application that relies 100% on your data connection to give you access to information on a mobile device is going to cause problems in the real world. That is why the better solution is a local program that can deal with being intermittently connected, to update information as needed in the background. The last thing you want, especially in front of a client, is your employee saying "gee, I don't know why this is taking so long. It usually runs really fast. Let me go outside and see if I can get a better signal really quick." in the middle of a big sale.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by strobate

Hmm. This is an interesting point, and my understanding was that this could be done on a BlackBerry, tho not easily (I'm not a developer so don't listen to me on this point).

That being said, in the enterprise environment I'm in this would _never_ fly without intense security controls in place. I'm not sure WinMo can deliver on those.

Of course it CAN be done. I'm not saying you CAN'T do it. I'm just saying that there are a lot more available tools, and people with experience with those tools to do it on platforms other than the BB. If, for example, your company already has a staff of Flash developers, they can be put on a Windows Mobile project when needed, or a desktop project when needed, or a Nokia project when needed, or a web project when needed. On the other hand, if you want the same thing done on a BB, you are going to have to hire someone who is a BB expert, and they are going to have to develop it specifically for the BB, with special tools just for the BB. That is a lot of extra expense and resources devoted to something that would be a trivial project on another platform. Those costs add up, and depending on what kind of business you run, it might make more sense to let IT shoulder the burden of higher maintenance on WM devices, rather than having to have dedicated development resources just for the BB.

As far as security goes, both Palms and Windows Mobile handhelds can work with VPNs just like a laptop, and that seems more than adequate security for the vast majority of large corporations.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

Fair enough and to keep this from becoming a Good vs BB battle (been there done that), I won't go into detail regarding GMI, but we have a product that will push updated content, like you are referring to, to the phone. Using your example, how would that Flash app get deployed to the phone? Cradling?

Well, back when I was doing process improvement tools for companies, we would just issue new devices when there was a major change in the software loadout, usually upgrading to the newest device at the same time, but yes, it could also be set as a mass sync when the user next cradled their device. You could also just put it on an intranet page to be downloaded to the device by the user. Either way, once the user had a device with the program on it, then the Flash app could keep itself updated.

The big point wasn't really Flash specific though, it was more an issue of openness. With Palm or Windows Mobile or even Nokia to some extent, there are a lot of different development tools and methodologies, and no one "right" way to develop an app. With the BB, you are locked into their development methodology, and are tied to the features supported by the BES, and require BB/BES expertise to develop anything. Flash was just the example I chose because it is about as close as currently exists to an author once distribute anywhere RAD tool. The point is that you don't have to have a staff of device specific mobile experts to develop a Windows Mobile or Palm app. There are a variety of RAD tools for those platforms out there that make it pretty easy for any developer to step right in and get an app up and running in a short timeframe.

[Berry One]

BlackBerry software runs on top of standard JVM. It may be easy to find Windows developer these days, but is it really hard to find Java developer?

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by Berry One

BlackBerry software runs on top of standard JVM. It may be easy to find Windows developer these days, but is it really hard to find Java developer?

Sure, it's Java, and there are a bunch of people who know Java. However, it isn't like it is just plain Java that can be whipped up in any old IDE and deployed to a BB just like any other platform. Most functions require you to use RIM libraries which have to be signed, and have limitations on what you can and can't do with them. Just try running some standard Java mobile phone apps on your BB and see how far that gets you.

And even if it were standard Java, I would hardly call a Java IDE a RAD tool.

[teddyb]

Went from a 7130 to a Q, then tried a Cingular 8125. Went back to the 7130. The Q did not do push, and while the 8125 did, it was very stop and go and would freeze up all the time. Also, when I went out of coverage, I would have to manually get mail, whereas with the bb, as soon as it was back in coverage it would push those emails out.

The awesome thing about the smartphones: wireless pim sync works well and is efortless. I have just ordered the 8700 and have high hopes for the 8800 - wifi woo hoo!

[noeffectx]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

Why not? There are push solutions available for WM5.

its not as reliable as bb push.

[Postalrecon]

Originally Posted by tmushy

I am sure they will eventually add push email to the Q. Also how does it not support it wasnt the unit meant to be a blackberry killer? (btw Q is very nice but Id take the blackberry pearl over it)

A little off topic, since the Q is the blackberry killer, did anyone else notice as soon as moto put out a phone with scroll wheel, and called it the "bb killer"...the first bb that came out or is comong out has the new track ball?

looks like a statement to me!

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by noeffectx

its not as reliable as bb push.

Really? Good has a 100% SLA on message delivery. That is pretty reliable.

Remember, talking software, not hardware, so let's not head down that road because I have been in BB vs other device discussions here and they aren't pretty. However, as long as we talk the BB application, then I have to disagree with your statement.

[Good_Guy]

Originally Posted by lmlloyd

Well, back when I was doing process improvement tools for companies, we would just issue new devices when there was a major change in the software loadout, usually upgrading to the newest device at the same time, but yes, it could also be set as a mass sync when the user next cradled their device. You could also just put it on an intranet page to be downloaded to the device by the user. Either way, once the user had a device with the program on it, then the Flash app could keep itself updated.

The big point wasn't really Flash specific though, it was more an issue of openness. With Palm or Windows Mobile or even Nokia to some extent, there are a lot of different development tools and methodologies, and no one "right" way to develop an app. With the BB, you are locked into their development methodology, and are tied to the features supported by the BES, and require BB/BES expertise to develop anything. Flash was just the example I chose because it is about as close as currently exists to an author once distribute anywhere RAD tool. The point is that you don't have to have a staff of device specific mobile experts to develop a Windows Mobile or Palm app. There are a variety of RAD tools for those platforms out there that make it pretty easy for any developer to step right in and get an app up and running in a short timeframe.

I see your point, however, my point is there are cradleless solutions out there. From an OS standpoint, total agreement. But from a device/installation management standpoint, MSFT is very, very lacking.

[lmlloyd]

Originally Posted by Good_Guy

I see your point, however, my point is there are cradleless solutions out there. From an OS standpoint, total agreement. But from a device/installation management standpoint, MSFT is very, very lacking.

I have never disagreed with that. In fact, I think for a lot of people (mostly IT departments), that single issue, not encryption, not push email, not features, is what makes them go with the BlackBerry. That is perfectly valid, and totally understandable. I was just trying to point out that there are also other issues that can come into the decision making process. One man's security hole, is another man's completely legitimate programing possibility.

What I was responding to specifically, was your comment that there was "no way [a large corporation] would implement [Windows Mobile]" specifically because of the management issues. On the other hand I know personally of two Fortune 100 companies that went Palm or Windows Mobile because they were the best platforms for the in-house applications they wanted to develop. I am in no way shape or form saying those platforms are better from an IT perspective. I am just saying that sometimes development considerations trump IT considerations.

I am just arguing that people need to look at the whole picture. No one wants to be in the position of pushing the CEO to adopt a 100% BB policy, only to six months later have to explain why it is not feasible to develop an app like your competitors have, because the BB OS makes it prohibitively difficult to do so.

[strobate]

The firm where I work uses Treos with Good. No apps are deployed, and IT doesn't love the Treos, but it's their job to deal with them so . . . Good definitely enables the device management and security features we need.